I actually had a different post planned to go out today, and now have to change the scheduling of it and a ton of other posts because I felt the need to comment and rant about something before you all hear a bunch of misinformation.
There’s rumors of an algorithm update that happened a couple weeks ago. Google has said nothing about it, but people claim that rankings have been lost, and quite a few of these people are using PBNs.
The rumor is, PBNs are dead.
Before We Get Started
If you consider yourself an SEO, offer SEO services, or at the very least are learning SEO… there’s one very important thing you have to keep in mind.
You have to be able to analyze what is going on in the industry, without any bias whatsoever. If you are incapable of critical thinking, testing, and unbiased analysis, then there is something wrong, and you should consider entering a different field.
One of the biggest problems the SEO community faces as a whole, besides the gross misinformation and blind leading the blind teachings, is the fact that major influencers in the industry have something to gain by the information they share, or misinformation for that matter. They also have something to gain by having certain biases.
Remember forum profile links in 2011? The link sellers worked hard to convince people they still work. Hell, even to this very day, some people are still buying that junk.
In 2012-2013, people selling article directory links were doing everything they can to convince people it still works.
When deciding on what to believe, the first question you should ask is does this person have anything to gain from taking a certain stance? If so, even if you consider them to be very trustworthy, take the information with a grain of salt, it is their business, not yours, that depends on their stance being the correct one. While they are trying to protect their own businesses, yours will suffer by following false information.
That being said… lets dive in.
Are PBNs Really Dead?
No.
**Mic Drop**
No need to continue on, but I guess I will.
Barry Shwartz of SEroundTable made a post, about a forum post on BlackHatWorld. Feeding into this white hat propaganda lately that PBNs don’t work, they’re too risky, they’re temporary, and now completely dead.
I’m not aware of Barry ever taking a certain stance on the issue, and I think he generally does a good job reporting on different things in search. It’s not him that I’m worried about mass misinformation being spread, it’s a bunch of others that will do that.
There is one thing he said that I take issue with and that is:
Of course, Google doesn’t like PBNs and I am sure they have algorithms that try to demote or devalue such links.
What he said isn’t false about Google not liking PBNs. I do take issue with him saying that they have algorithms to try to demote or devalue such links. We have enough fear mongering in the main stream media, we don’t need it in the world of SEO.
If you run a truly private blog network, there is no algorithm that can demote or devalue the links. If it is truly a private blog network, that has been set up with some basic common sense (although not nearly as common as it should be) then there’s not going to be a footprint to find.
Why Are People With PBNs Having Issues?
Barry Shwartz is basing this “algorithm update” on reports of disappearing rankings, on black hat forums. For someone that visits black hat forums, or ANY SEO related forum, you will see reports every day that claims they lost rankings. It’s business as usual.
I’m not calling him out on bad reporting. It’s what he does, he keeps an eye out for any changes in search, what different people are saying, and what is being said or reported on forums.
The problem is, a bunch of white hat authority figures are going to use his post/article as fact, and fuel their own agendas to push their software, platforms, courses, content, etc.
Personally, I don’t believe there was an algorithm update that targeted PBNs. I don’t believe there will EVER, be an algorithm update that singles out PBNs.
Before I go into why people with PBNs may have issues, and why this is a big fat nothing-burger… I thought I’d reach out to someone to see their thoughts.
I went to Matt Diggity, of Diggity Marketing who has a massive network and is one of the most well known people for PBNs. Some of you remember his guest post here a while back. I asked him what his thoughts are of a possible algorithm change that targets PBNs, and what he thought about the rumors of PBNs being dead.
This was his response:
I just completed a round of PBN testing as per this protocol. 100% of the links tested in this test round showed very positive increases on their test sites. We can speculate all we want about PBNs, but data is data… and that’s what I’ll be sticking to.
He also added;
It’s very possible that some people are seeing ranking hits lately. Is it because of PBNs? Or possibly 200 other things? But if it is PBNs, I invite others to look at the quality of their setups, domains, and OBL patterns.
Now, to be fair, he does sell links in his PBN. However, he doesn’t exactly have to try very hard to sell them since he regularly has a 6+ month waiting list. He also isn’t a forum rat trying to pimp out link services to everyone that has a paypal or credit card.
I agree with him that there’s nothing to see here… yes there are people that use PBNs that have had rankings decrease, or even completely disappear. This isn’t anything new. There’s somebody it happens to every single day out of the year, and this has been the case for almost 2 years now.
Things To Look Out For…
If you’re one of the unlucky people that have had rankings decrease and you use PBNs, ask yourself a couple questions…
- Did you build your PBN yourself? If not, you’re depending on someone else to care more about your results than you do.
- Are you leaving an obvious footprint? Analytics? Webmaster tools? Monetization methods? IP addresses? What about name servers or A records you’re using? Often times people will use different C class IPs but use the same nameservers.
- Are you regularly testing your PBNs to make sure they didn’t turn to shit?
Final Thoughts
If there was a massive difference in rankings for ALL PBNs, I would still hesitate to say that it was an algorithm change that specifically targeted PBNs.
There’s a lot of factors that determine rankings. You all know this. The only way that PBNs will ever be successfully targeted as a collective, is if the value of backlinks diminish.
You’re safe, until Google decides to completely devalue backlinks entirely. While I do see a lot of evidence that suggests links are being weighed a little less than before, I think we’re still far from being in a world where Google doesn’t need to see links in order to judge where it should be listed. Unfortunately for those of you depending on PBNs, I don’t think that day is far enough away.
Right on excellent post again nasty nate.
My PBN is fine. Never saw any decreases but based on digitys link i should be doing more to test and drop any properties that are toxic.
Also i should bring up that i have noticed PBN are not as effective as they used to be. I think yourr right about links slowly losing a little value.
Thanks SEO Dude. I’ve heard a lot of people talk about their PBNs being less effective, there’s a lot to consider though in why that may be.
And now you are advocating and enabling people to continue violate Google guidelines.
Since you commented two days ago saying you have unsubscribed because of the content I put out, you have visited the blog 13 times. Nuff said.
LOL good comeback to Charles and furthermore it seems there are ways to disguise PBN’s and though you may lose a PBN you can make it not effect your money-site. You just need to be resourceful on how you do your link outs.
Thanks for the comment Steve!
Just a thought on PBNs after a few years of work – running your own PBN sites can take so much time, you don’t have enough time for your real business! In fact, if your PBN sites are as good as they need to be, you should be monetising them as full-on commercial sites. Many will disagree with me – but that’s my conclusion after 3 years in this business from beginner to practitioner.
Interesting take Keith. I can’t disagree with you, but I do think there are systems that can be set up to semi-automate, along with replacing yourself consistently. Just like you would in other aspects of your business. You raise a good point though.
You also make a valid point. It leaves us with three options: 1) Understand PBN’s and the risks and work associated with them and plow on – I find this too time consuming by far. 2) Outsource /automate the management of your PBNs as you suggest – this will reduce work but still require solid understanding and management of the process and product. 3) Use a 3rd party providers of wholesale SEO services that do not use PBNs – or at least not exclusively. – I really steer away from PBN link providers as being very high risk.
I’ve arrived at the point where item 3 is my selected option – Posirank and The Hoth are pretty good.
On a different but related point, I find many people (seem) to spend so much time concentrating on ‘beating Google’ with strategies involving PBNs , difficult to get links, and a thousand other (blackhat) things, I wonder how they manage their real business! Doubtless some do, but a great many of the ‘tutors’ and ‘systems’ out there are (sometimes) well- meant, but end up being worse than useless because of the resource required to understand, develop and manage the needed PBN infrastructure.
Finally, I was struck very powerfully by a post by Andrew Hansen some time ago wherein he showed that there are big-budget companies put there with top-notch software we can’t compete with that hoover up the best retired domains long before we can get to them. That was the final decider for me!
Thanks for your response – much appreciated.
Thanks again for another great comment Keith. I think which option you would choose depends on what type of business you have. For me, when I was running my agency, I had a training program for all new hires, whether they were sales, project management or fulfillment. To be fair though, nothing was related to PBNs, but I could take any average Joe off the street and have them running solid, result generating campaigns.
If you’re a one man show, then that obviously isn’t the path you would take unless you have a lot of VA’s and outsourcers on staff. Depends entirely on how big you are, and how much you want to grow. Not everyone wants to have high volume clients… in fact, even those that have high volume, don’t necessarily want it lol.
For those offering Local SEO services, I don’t believe using PBNs are even necessary most of the time. I think this is a semi-micro niche issue in the world of SEO.
My focus, has never been on beating Google. Just beating the competition. I think most black hatters would be wise to take that same approach.
Thanks again!
Pbns may be difficult to set up, hard to manage, but being able to create links on demand with the anchor text you want is pretty powerful… 100’s of emails later your link outreach gets a few links… Either way it takes work… With pbn at least you know your getting the link
Thanks for the comment Alan. Yeah, I would never waste time with link outreach especially for local sites. Far more effective ways to go, even for white hatters.
They aren’t hard to set up as long as you know the tricks – different hosts, themes and plugins etc along with the usual under the radar tricks, but I after adding articles etc I started wondering – ‘hey, this is a genuine good site – it ranks – why don’t I sell from it? It’s got great backlinks, good content and so on. That’s when I realised – the PBN is a dead idea (for me) – Google’s forced us to make these properties into quality sites – I’m not thinking about this correctly – the conventional wisdom doesn’t work for me. Now I appreciate this isn’t true for all – I’m only giving my personal opinion and my opinion s only as valid as that of anyone else who’s been working this gig for a while.
For sure they are not dead,,,, most of our competitors are using them and doing just fine in any niche
I think the whole “pbns are dead” thing comes from people who got stung from buying links from inexperienced sellers like on fiverr or any other similar platform
Also it comes from people who built their sites and did no other types of link building other than pbns,, making your site stand out to google straight away
I know plenty of well known names that used to use pbns but now tell their followers not to use them, but never answer the simple question of? Did you fail using pbns because you just purchased 100 links from some unknown seller,,, or did you pay someone to make your network for you….or did you make your network yourself? Or…. the ultimate question,,, did your site get penalised because you had links from diggity or m. Woodward? (Trusted sellers)
These white hat gurus are quick to say not to use pbn links because of their own experience, but they don’t share the important information of the quality of those links….
Excellent comment. What I find funny about many of the cases that claim penalties, or problems with PBNs, often times have nothing to do with the PBN itself. Lots of other issues going on that causes rank loss, or never gaining in the SERPs to begin with.
I agree Gary! Their is the question of why are some telling their followers not to use PBN’s. You’re right the method used may be flawed or the method may be a new and improved method. Usually these new and improved methods are not tested long enough to be proven. Just enough to show that they work under some conditions. I’ve also seen leaders dump a method and point to new method suddenly that they are an affiliate for. My point is do your research and be selective who you listen to.
http://bloglivin.com/
PBNs still work fine, they work best when you are in a market where there is very little other link sources to get. I’m from Hungary which is a small country with a population of 10 million. In most of the niches, authority sites are simply non-existent, and it’s nearly impossible to get links from the few big sites (news for example).
So with good on-page SEO, PBN-s do the trick, and we could rank multiple sites in very competitive niches like plastic surgery. We buy strong expired domains and turn them into PBNs. We know that in time it will lose its strength because it won’t get new links and it’s possible that it will lose some, but that’s the way how PBNs work. I find it too much work to build a social fortress around them, it’s just much easier to buy new domains.
In my opinion, a lot of cases PBN’s has far the best ROI, which should be important for every SEO expert.
Well remember you can always cultivate 3rd party properties for your own links too. Good point about smaller markets across the world.
Interesting read Nathan. I got hit 2 weeks ago with 30% loss of keyword rankings and traffic down about the same. I have no PBN however I did just finish an outreach campaign that coincides with the hit so naturally assumed it was that. Are there any thoughts or info on what the last keyword ranking decline was about? 2 of my sites were hit and I can’t really see any logic as I still have my main keywords ranking but alot of words where I was no 17 as example I am now 150 . Interestingly the income on the main site has not changed.
I believe it’s certainly possible that links are getting devalued from certain properties as part of penguin. I also believe it’s perfectly normal for other links to naturally lose value. Were those keywords or pages getting linked to? That’s the first thing I would take a look at, the links to the page, examine the original page the link came from, see if anything has changed on the originating site (more obl’s, different site arch, etc.).
I normally don’t pay much attention to large drops if the keywords are the lower part of page 2 or below. Where you are on page 2, really makes no difference. Ranked 17, or 150… its all the same to me. I wouldn’t stress over it.
Now I do not use PBN’s for my work (just 100% outreach as of now)…But that doesn’t mean they don’t work. A few of my mentors use them, and they definitely work for them.
The one thing I can’t stand, is when these ‘white hat’ guys post all this crap about how PBNs don’t work anymore, or some other scare tactic. In the end, if links work in general for SEO…Then there is no reason why a PBN won’t work.
Thanks for the article! I’ll definitely be sharing this one.
Thanks, I appreciate the comment Luke and the share!
Imho it is all about a healthy Mix coming from different Domains and PBNs can/should be a Part of it, depending on Competitors-strength (so knowing where you want to rank: Local, National or international).
Just some more food for thought: dont rely on just one Method of building links.
Greets from Germany.
Thanks for the comment. Good point, and it’s the same for business in its’ entirety. Don’t rely on one lead source, one employee, one revenue stream, and if you’re doing SEO, definitely don’t rely on one method of building links lol.
Great post. We still heavily believe they rely on sloppy builds and manual spam reports to catch the majority of penalized PBN / sites.
We manage a large number of networks and didn’t notice any drops in our own efforts with this ‘groundhog day’ update. We certainly didn’t get any feedback from clients that they had faced any major drops either.
That being said that are some factors in play in recent years:
# I agree with you – Decline links as a ranking factor.
# Decline in organic CTR – more ads, snippets, videos, maps etc
# Machine learning – bounce back to search etc…You’ve got to have the best answer to a query to really maintain a consistent top 5 placement.
I feel sometimes that once you have a process down for managing your PBN, it’s the easy part these days. Much more of our resources go on producing high-end professional content for our affiliate portfolio.
I have a hard time with this one… There simply is not an algo that is after PBN’s . They go after a standardized foot print in some cases, but I believe most of the PBN actions are manual vs through a Algo update.
I have PBN’s… I have sites on some of my structures that just hit the 20 yr mark. If they haven’t got it by now.. chances are good they never will. – and to be straight up honest.. I’m not even all that sneaky or secret agent about it.
So what is causing all of the recent unrest… At this point, between being PBN related or my favorite Penguin…uh hello.. its now a permanent real time fixture in the algo.. so date related changes are no longer valid.
Kinda leaves 2 options… Panda being one of them. I have a hard time with this theory.. to many sites that for a long duration were never hit.. saw drops.. Kinda throws this one out.
So my half cracked theory.. I am basing this on about 1000 general sites, 1400 US based Geo specific sites, and 700 international based commerce sites. A pretty decent data set ( or I think so ) With some pretty interesting patterns in terms of those that lost and those that gained.
So the last available option…. ( drum roll ) RankBrain. Look at the updates in Jan 2016, May 2016, Nov 2016, and Dec 2016… Just no real solid answers.. Google aint saying nothing.. and the guessing is all over the place. Aside from Panda ( I would suggest Google would claim a Panda Update ) the only other rank factor that could possible create such an influx, not once but 4 times at least is as I said RankBrain.
The more they run the offline permutations of RankBrain, they more they are connecting “Intent” with “Results” Slam that all together with say CTR, and bounce and Time on page.. I think it becomes a no brainer explanation.
There are other factors that make a stronger case in all of this – one could argue that the idea of LSI terms are now dead. Not so matchy matchy synonyms is the primary factor in the patterns that I am seeing. The term “Boat” for example.. A site I worked on was using “Ship” as an LSI term.. they just are not the same thing. We removed the term “Ship” and the pages rank bounced back pretty fast.
So that’s my theory…
Hi Bully,
It’s pretty hard to find relevant and powerful domains at the same time. Is it good enough to get some random spelled domain which is clean and also powerful to build PBNs?
Thanks for this guide, mate! Really appreciate your effort!
I guess they would be okay, but I’d prefer to sacrifice a little bit of power to get more relevance.
State of the art SEO in 2017 means socializing on a P2P basis. I’d love to explain this further but hate typing on the tablet I’m currently using to write this, haha.
Nice post though!
Jean
I’d like to share that I’ve been fortunate and have saved a lot of money by searching freelancer websites like “People per Hour” and found out that I can get a backlink for $100 where it might cost $500 with the “resellers.”