I’ve never posted a rant before. Occasionally in a post, I’ll kind of go on a bit longer than I should about a specific thing, but I don’t consider that ranting.
I wasn’t even going to write a blog post today, but I’m so disgusted with some of the information being put out there, by so called “expert” sources, on high authority blogs via guest posts that I can’t ignore it like I usually do.
Honestly, I don’t know if these people are just complete idiots, or just writing bullshit that sounds good because they think it helps them gain authority.
The Problem With the Local SEO Crowd
I say problem in that heading, but realistically, there are many problems. Not just one, but multiple.
The biggest problem is that there’s a group of people, all patting each other on the back and convincing themselves they’re the industry’s authorities.
The first thing they do before answering a question, is to make sure what they respond with, doesn’t conflict with Google guidelines, and doesn’t conflict with another one of their “expert” buddies.
Next, after they make sure they stay within Google guidelines and they don’t offend their buddy by giving legitimate advice, they regurgitate the same BS theories that have been told time and time again.
When it comes to local SEO, the information you get is overwhelmingly white hat. White hat isn’t bad, but most of their information is along the lines of the whitest, white hat you can find on earth, then bleaching it 100 times. It would be nice if the world was that way, but it isn’t.
Some of these people think of themselves as “king makers” when it comes to information and authority. I guess they are right. They are king makers, because nobody is challenging them. Nobody is challenging the status quo whatsoever and it’s freakin annoying.
This isn’t the first time in history people have been this way. Entire governments, countries, the whole world, has refused to challenge beliefs. The earth was believed to be flat, and if you thought otherwise in some cases you would be imprisoned, punished, even put to death. You were a social outcast.
This is what is going on in Local SEO circles.
You’re not getting imprisoned, or put to death for disagreeing but you are definitely shunned. In fact, one of these cult members told me specifically that I would never be included in any top blog list, round up, or promotion by any of them because I disagree with them too often.
SEO is not an art form… it’s more of a science. Sorry for actually looking at evidence and data to form my opinions instead of following your idiotic cult of outdated ideas.
It makes sense though…
Why would this group of people want to bump shoulders with me? Actually, why would they bump shoulders with any of you either?
After all, their notoriety and authority is built on the information they share and promote for each other. It isn’t because of the quality of information. It isn’t because they are legitimate experts in the field.
These people capitalize off of others that don’t know any better.
I’ve made my money by actually doing things. I’ve made my money by working with clients, and analyzing a bunch of data, trying new things, doing case studies, seeing what works and what doesn’t, tracking 1,000 different SERPs for different keywords, industries and locations.
But by all means… keep on sharing your theories of what works, then chime in on each others posts, saying how “remarkable” their content is, and how much you agree with their “cutting edge” ideas that have been around for 5 years now.
For those of us that actually do this type of work, theory doesn’t cut it. Google guidelines aren’t the #1 concern to clients that pay us to do this type of work.
Results…that’s what they want. Put up or shut up. If you can’t get results, you can’t put food on the table.
That’s the reality that we deal with. We, being those of us that actually do this stuff for a living instead of circle jerking the egos of everyone inside the “circle of influence”.
I’m not going to kiss anyone’s ass for more traffic or to be found in a favorable view of others inside their group. Go ahead and consider me a social pariah in the world of SEO.
The truth is, people that follow this blog already know that I give it to them straight. The information I share is tried, tested and true. It’s based on experience, and more important than that, is it’s based on data and results.
So screw your traffic, your theories, your top blogs list, and your BS circle of influence. I certainly don’t need you. I’ll just be over here keeping it real.
Example of BS Theories
I can’t just rant all day here, I need to show all of you some of the stuff that’s being taught and why it’s wrong. I’m sure some of you would take my word for it regarding certain things, but let’s break it down.
I’m not going to mention any of these people by name.
They don’t deserve the name recognition or additional exposure.
Example 1: Culprit Says Google+ Posting Doesn’t Effect Rankings
I’ve written a post in the past about social signals not effecting SEO, and I stand by that today. However, we’re not talking about social signals here.
The culprit said Google phone support has suggested G+ posting to benefit rankings, and that you should ignore that because it doesn’t play a role in rankings, whatsoever.
This is nonsense.
The activity of a Google+ Business page DOES play a role in local rankings, as well as general activity on the network. People you follow, people that follow you, communities that you’re in. It all plays a role.
Sharing links to the business website, is still a link. Nofollow or not, it’s a link that builds relevance, maybe not PR, but relevance nonetheless.
Next, the more active you are on any social media platform, the more INTERNAL PageRank you can build for your page. Since PR isn’t updated anymore and not available to the public, we don’t know what it is but we know it’s still a factor.
Another culprit seconded the first culprit’s statements. Actually, I’ll go ahead and mention his name, Darren the owner of Whitespark said:
Posts on Google+ Have never contributed to rankings, and now, with the way Google has separated Local from Google+, there is no reason for a business to waste time on Google+.
Really Darren?
Ah well, this is the same guy that said you shouldn’t claim or create a GMB listing until MONTHS after you’ve built and claimed all your citations. Of course, he wouldn’t know any of that because he doesn’t do client work.
Legitimate uses for Google+ to benefit local rankings:
One technique I always liked to use was to join location specific communities. I always tried to follow in order to get followed, for the business I was helping.
I have charts listed below and one of the examples is an HVAC company I did SEO and online marketing for. We completed all citations and on page stuff, they were stuck in the G/7th spot. This was before the snack pack took over, 7 pack was still around.
I shared a bit of content to their g+ page, but took it a step further and joined 5 different local communities. Only one was actually active, but we joined to build a stronger location relevance to the business page. If you’re in 5 different communities all related to the city you’re targeting, is it difficult to believe that would help?
Of course, it did help. The client moved up to the B spot, almost instantly. We then created an animoto style slideshow video for the company, optimized it, and shared in the 4 inactive communities.
Within 10 days, the business jumped to the A spot, #1, with the first organic spot being the video.
But.. if you listened to these people, none of that is possible.
Below are a few examples, business name and city not included.
Sample 1: This was for AC repair and HVAC services for a guy in a very populated city in Texas. #1 rankings in 8 weeks! Bottom part of the graph shows the weeks, sorry, didn’t label it!
Sample 2: Extremely tough client in a very competitive niche, and a very populated and competitive city. One of the biggest examples of this working.
Sample 3: I’ll just go ahead and give you the city, New York City, where else is there that’s very competitive in NY? Buffalo and Albany are easy, NYC, not so much. The keyword wasn’t Dentist, but it is dental related. #1 in 8 weeks
Now, I’m not going to say that the reason these were so successful is because of posting on Google+ but there was an obvious stall or plateau in rankings, and this definitely played a part in increasing those rankings.
The culprit, is wrong, as usual.
Example 2: Different Culprit says it takes 10-12 weeks to see impact from a backlink.
If this was actually the truth, I never would have gotten into SEO.
Perhaps it’s because of teachings like this that the average SEO client only remains with a company for an average of 3 months.
It’s these same people that tell others to not expect rankings for 6 months or more!
If it really takes you 10-12 weeks to see impact from backlinking, then you’re doing it wrong or you’re getting awful, garbage links.
A few weeks back, I wrote a blog post on keyword research tools, comparing long tail pro and market samurai. I’m currently working on ranking case study for the term long tail pro vs. market samurai.
Once everything settled from being a new post, I was sitting at 56. Yes, #56 in the rankings. I built 2 links from web 2.0 properties, and within 2 days jumped to #18.
I haven’t done anything since then and it still sticks around there.
When I build a couple more backlinks for that page, I will likely see impact from those links within a couple days, 1 week at the most.
What the culprit fails to realize, is that it isn’t year 2004 anymore. We’re in 2016. These are the days where it doesn’t take Google 2-3 months to find links. If it takes you a long time to see ranking impact from backlinking, you’re just doing it wrong, that’s all.
Example 3: Culprit Says You Will Only Rank in the Physical Location of the Business.
They go on to talk about service area and how it doesn’t matter, and that you won’t be able to rank outside of your city.
I don’t think I need to expand on this one too much, do I?
One of the most popular blog posts I’ve written was about how I’ve ranked a business in 20+ cities for 60+ keywords, even with duplicate content.
That post was written over one year ago, but still remains as accurate today as it was then.
Example 4: Crew of Jokesters Says EXIF Manipulation Will Get You Higher Rankings
This one I find really funny.
There’s this group of people pumping out courses, webinars, products, memberships for “insider information” to teach you how to rank local sites.
Look, I’m not hating on capitalism. They’ve taken advantage of a need in the market space to sell their snake oil BS. I’m a big supporter of capitalism, and in capitalism, one would expect that their market share and influence will dwindle when the free market presents a strong competitor.
I’m going to be that competitor, and expose their bullshit.
One specific strategy they talk about, is using EXIF data manipulation in order to impact rankings.
For those of you that don’t know, EXIF data is extra information or meta data implanted in images. You can do this with photoshop and other image editing sources.
What they suggest people do, is stuff a bunch of keywords, insert geo coordinates, and a bunch of other things to give a sense of location relevance when you uploaded images to your GMB listing or on your website.
This is totally false.
It doesn’t work.
It’s nonsense.
Will this hurt you? No, probably not, aside from you wasting valuable time on something so ridiculous. Will it help? Of course not.
EXIF data is used for photographers and graphic artists so they can track their copyrighted materials usage. There’s speculation on whether EXIF data even helps in image search, I believe it probably does, but the fact is this does not, and will not impact local or non image based searches.
It’s total hogwash.
And these are the people that are charging you anywhere from $100-1,000+ for training.
Final Thoughts
I feel sorry for the people out there trying to learn. The business owners investing their money in something that most people are blindly following self proclaimed “thought leaders” who have never successfully worked with clients in the past.
I feel sorry for all of you that have come to read this, and feel hurt that you’ve been lied to all along due to internet politics.
And I feel sorry for those of you in the “circle of influence” that are so weak minded and weak as individuals that you feel the need to fit in so you can conquer the world of local SEO with a mob mentality.
I’m sure some of those that I’m talking about in this post, will come here, read this word for word but never say anything publicly about it. Not even a comment saying I’m wrong.
Am I right?
Well even for you, I left you a surprise:
Ahhaha bro I Remember the exif craze on warriorforum back in like 2012.
Junk then junk now.
LOL, yeah the 10 WSOs in a row launched about it. Funny stuff.
Oh and eff them. I know exactly who you’re talking aboit. They’re all a bunch of clowns
I couldn’t agree more.
Vicious.
You kind of pumped me up tbh.
I learned a while ago, forget what experts say and test for yourself.
Obama middle finger ftw.
haha, thanks for the comment J. Always, ALWAYS test things for yourself. That’s the only real way of knowing whether what you do works or not.
This is exactly why we’ll never help you, you don’t know how to play the game. So what we promote what is safe? Google always changes, there will always be people needing information from me, or the other people offering info on things.
You think we’re a joke? We think you’re a joke. You’re burning bridges while we’re working together to increase our audience reach.
Think you can cover the same ground we can together all by yourself? Good luck with that.
It’s a shame, you had a lot of potential and you’re wasting it on trying to bash the people that can help you.
Oh you spineless coward..and a throw away email. You don’t want people to know who you are? Why not? I wasn’t even going to approve your comment, but hopefully people see this is the type of attitude these guys have.
Obviously I ruffled some feathers. I assume you must be subscribed to this blog, otherwise you wouldn’t have been here so fast. If that’s the case, then I think I’ve been doing something right, considering I spend an hour or two a week on the blog and you guys spend 40-60+ hours a week maintaining your circle jerk crew.
Trust me, if I invested the amount of time you guys do, you would be in big trouble. You probably don’t want to see the outcome of that, but I’m sick enough of the nonsense you and others are pushing I think I will.
I don’t need help from fake people and spineless cowards that won’t even show who they are.
I can smell your stanky puss from here. Why would he want help from a fake cunt like you?
Thank you Nathan. This post/rant was very timely. Don’t forget, your large following is
because of your honesty.
So what if their clueless clique doesn’t want to include you. Man, when did keeping a high school mentality become fashionable???
You live it, eat it, and sleep it. You know what you know because you have actually tried
and failed, and tried and succeeded. No theory, just facts.
I have been going through some really expensive courses lately, and all but 2 of them were
extremely disappointing. Most of these so called experts can’t close a sale or do effective SEO. As you stated, they have no real world experience with local business owners.
Theory is not FACT.
I just wish I could keep people who are honestly searching for credible information from losing money and time, with these worthless “experts”.
Whether I agree or disagree, I appreciate the fact you are not afraid to speak your mind, and keep it real. It’s refreshing.
Thanks for the comment Aunt D. I just hate how the guru crew works, so stupid. Those that have been in the game for a while can spot it from a mile away because they actually have experience. People that are just starting out though, get sucked into the rabbit hole.
Nathan, I’ve subscribed to a lot of blogs over the years, and have unsubscribed to almost all of them. I never commented here before but though I should let you know the reason I’m still subscribed to yours is because of the information you provide. Even the posts that aren’t as intriguing to me, I still enjoy reading and get good tips from.
There’s people like me out there that have been trying to learn local search for a long time and keep finding it difficult because there’s not any real help available. I think you hit the nail on the head here calling some of this stuff out and making it known for all the people like me.
Quite frankly, I’m tired of all the guru positioning, sales funnels and endless affiliates hyping up products or training. I know whenever you put out a product or course, it’s great. You don’t even use the affiliates that all these people do. I respect that.
Keep up the excellent work my friend. We all appreciate it and will remain loyal. I love that you encourage people to test things out for themselves, sadly, most of these gurus don’t encourage that.
I for one, would love to see you invest more time into the blog. I think you can grow it to insane numbers. I look forward to it.
Wow Ken, thank you so much for the kind words. I appreciate it!
Ditto what Ken said!
Thanks Kevin!
Nathan, I read nearly every post you put out. Keep ’em coming bro. This is exactly what the SEO world needs. A challenge to the status quo.
You’ve actually changed my perspective on the true power of an auto-responder. I’ve always thought, that the days of quality email marketing were gone. But, man I click on nearly every email you send.
Great job my friend. Keep up the good work. And remember, haters gonna hate. As Grant Cardone says, if you don’t have any haters, you need to get you some!
Thanks for the kind words Lou! When I see this crap out there, it definitely motivates me to keep on going.
Yep. I’m finding the same things to be true. Strange…I’d never been very analytical until just the past 12-18 months or so. I’ve always found it to be cumbersome and I’m someone that likes small projects because I get bored so quickly. But recently I’ve seen some things that totally go against the grain and it’s right in line with what you’re saying.
First of all, there are not one but TWO Google Plus plus pages ranking in the top-11 for a major keyword in a major area I searched yesterday. Just one guy with two posts from last year. Oh, and his LinkedIn page was on page two, as well.
About a month ago I sent a friend request to a guy that seemed pretty smart in a Facebook group I’m in. I waited a couple weeks, started thinking that maybe he was too “uppety” for the “Joe man”, so I started poking around on his page and found a link out to his site. Well, I did some checking in Google and lo and behold, this guy’s site is ranking well for 3 major keywords in a state I won’t name for “city name + SEO”.
The real kicker was when I started digging into his site and realized that it consists of nothing but one article placed on all 3 of the other pages and a similar page for each term with a great video. I was stunned!
The guy finally did accept my friend request. I guess he’d been busy and hadn’t been on Facebook for awhile. Made sense. Anyhow, I sent him a PM and told him what I’d seen and asked how he did it. He told me almost the same thing you said above, almost verbatim.
Insane!
I’ve started doing some more testing of my own and am finding out some really cool stuff. I can’t share, though, at least not here. I guess I’m just not nice like you, Nathan. LOL, LOL, LOL 🙂
I setup a new, BRAND new, site for a client that I’ve known for awhile back in October. He does business with me in my offline adventure. I needed some cash to pay some bills, so I told him I’d do some basic keyword research, write some content, setup his pages correctly, submit his site to the citation directories you recommended and make a video for each page and submit it to YouTube.
Well, I never even got around to the videos. The guy is ranking #1 for one of his primary terms, is on page one for the second term, has a large side listing at the top of one of the pages AND he’s in the freaking 3-pack for both keywords!!!
I’m REALLY kicking myself now for not charging him more money, but I had no idea that would happen!
Bottom line, I’ve gotta give you kudos. You definitely know your stuff.
To everyone else, start testing!
That’s great stuff Joe! Man, I’m glad to hear you got some good results. I sometimes wonder how many people actually apply the stuff I put out here lol, there needs to be more stories like yours.
I’m curious what you’re trying out that you can’t share.
You probably, most likely should have charged more, but doesn’t it feel good to know you actually are making a difference for the guy? That, and the confidence you got from being able to do that, is probably worth more to you long term than any amount you could have charged.
Yeah, I have a vested interest, you might say, in that guy’s ongoing success. He and his Dad have been buying supplies and equipment from me in my offline biz since 2002, so the more customers that site generates, the more stuff they use, the more they break, wear out, etc, and the more they buy from Joe!
I love how that works. 🙂
Actually, another important thing is that it was mutually beneficial. I got to help a couple friends who’ve spent a lot of money with me over the years. Yes, that is very gratifying.
Regarding the “secret”, it’s no secret. You already know and have posted about it. I just don’t want to point it out directly because I don’t want a huge crowd of people doing it. If that happened Google would eventually take notice and screw up my happy dance and I simply can’t have that! Lol
PM me on Skype and I’ll tell ya’. It’s nothing major, but I like it.
Fair enough Joe, I don’t blame you. You have to protect that stuff! lol.
Awwww man, please tell me this secret!! I won’t tell anyone, I swear!!
Nathan, I started following you about 6 weeks ago when I searched for vape shop marketing and came across the post you made for the vape shop.
My brother started an SEO company recently and I told him about your blog here. He’s implemented many things you’ve discussed for my business and it’s been working great.
Glad I didn’t land somewhere else!
Ha, I think your brother actually emailed me not too long ago. Thanks for the comment and the word of mouth advertising! Glad to hear things are going well for you guys.
I have a question how is it that pics will appear on the first page of Google but not videos? The reason I ask is because I have a video that appears on the fist spot of video pages but not on the general Google page. By the way I bought your SEO training last week. To me Web SEO is too competitive too much work and likr vides since I learned how to make them 3D and whiteboard. But yes, I stated building and destroying WP sites for my own use. I have ranked wb pages with a video in it on goodies first page but it only shows the page title would like to have video shown. Sorry for the long comment. Any tips on political campaigns, like them and that field will be evergreen and they have cash! Love it man!!
Hey Giovanni, thanks for the comment. Both Pics and videos can appear on the first page. For videos, it’s more difficult than it used to be. It used to be that you could create the video, optimize the title and description then you would rank. It requires more work now.
You said you bought my SEO training last week. You sure about that? I don’t have SEO training out yet! Unless you meant the Agency blueprint.
“I don’t have SEO training out yet!”
I like the “yet” part of that! Looking forward to what might be coming. 🙂
It will be amazing. haha.
Really excellent post Nathan, thank you for such an honest, (appropriately) emotional, yet level-headed and logical post. I too have become a very regular reader of your stuff and this only confirms that I’ll continue coming here as soon as I see an email from you. Keep it up!
This is also perfect timing to read as I left an agency not long ago to strike out on my own. While they were a decent group of people, I always felt they were a bit too in-line with what Google and it’s suck-ups (aka “Culprits”) said, as opposed to going after methods that had a true impact on moving the needle. Seeing your results, as well as some of the great comments here from those kind enough to share their own experiences, is certainly encouraging. Thanks to all.
I’m glad you enjoyed it Rey. Good luck going on your own, there’s nothing more rewarding! You will now know it better than most, that the results you get puts food on the table. Those people promoting certain tactics, aren’t going to pay your bills for you, that’s for damn sure.
Nathan, just like I told you I HATE YOU FOR WRITING THIS POST BEFORE ME! LOL I Agree with you and this is the same thing I always say. A lot of those so called “SEO EXPERTS” are idiots and all they know is what they read by the Google Guidelines. They don’t do any testing, or spend time actually finding their own methods etc. Their main worries are how to keep their egos shinny and making sure their others “Experts Buds” love them. This has to be one of the best posts you’ve ever written. The funny thing is I remember one so called “experts” that even created a video course on how to rank in Google Places at the time, and he is one of those people that people think he is an expert but the guy would call me at 6am freaking out about one of his clients having duplicate problems and what can he do before his client sees it LOL that’s your expert people hahahahaha. Good job bud!
Hahaha.. don’t you love it when the big shots have to call the people they snub their noses at when they need help? Glad you liked it.
Hey Nathan,
I always appreciate the clarity and honesty in your posts. There is definitely a ton of BS out there from folks both experienced and non experienced. One of the things I appreciate most is the proof that you share in all of your posts and product reviews that what you’re suggesting works.
For that reason, I was with you all the way until example 4. Not because I’ve tested it to know that exif data does positively impact rankings, but because you didn’t site any proof that it doesn’t, and all indications would suggest that it could be a positive ranking factor.
If it does work it’s probably low on the list of overall priorities, but even you acknowledge that Google is aware of the data since it probably helps in image searches. So, from a local SEO perspective, why would that not also be a sign of geo relevance?
If the photos on a site appear to be taken in the area where the site also has a city related partial match domain, location specific content, schema, GMB profile, citations etc, that should only add to the confidence Google has in the site’s local relevance, right?
To me the only way to know for sure would be to prove it doesn’t do anything. Put up two local city based sites that are exactly the same in every way except 1 letter difference in the domain name. See how they rank once they index, then edit the exif data of the images on the site that falls in position 2 to have geo relevant keywords & coordinates. If the position #2 site overtakes #1, that means there is some truth to exif data affecting rankings. If nothing happens we have our answer there too.
I really do appreciate your posts and work. From one SEO that’s tired of the BS to another, I feel it’s only right for us to all keep each other honest! 🙂
Hey thanks for the comment Martin. I do plan on doing a dedicated post on EXIF data, as I’ve tested it out extensively over the years. As you probably know, there are different algorithms for different features. The local filter is different than the organic algorithm, and image search is different than both. The way the Google patent works is that once an image is indexed, for image search purposes they will then be able to analyze the EXIF data. This is all speculation that they even use this for image search, but that’s the process it would be. It’s an entirely different process than organic and local.
Now if you want to use images to boost your rankings, file names play a role, but using images on web 2.0s and parasites will also help if it’s pulled from another local website. The EXIF data won’t play a role, period…
Think about it like this… Meta descriptions no longer play a role in rankings, right? EXIF data serves a purpose that is even LESS important than meta descriptions. Even if you set a meta description on a certain page, Google is likely to ignore it, and generate its’ own description based on what they believe the searcher wants to see.
I even bought software back in 2012 that would automate the process of manipulating EXIF data. I used it for about 45-50 different websites, with no impact in rankings, well, at least nothing abnormal. A few sites went up, but that’s because of some dirty tricks I pulled against the competitor, not because of EXIF data lol.
Hey Martin,
I feel the same way as you regarding the exif stuff, thinking that it might be helpful (though the fact that Nathan says he HAS done quite a bit of testing on it makes me question it more now). All that being said, and like you suggested and Nathan has done, all that’s left to do is TEST it ourselves. I recently came across a very interesting video about doing just that, and I might give it a try on this point. If you’re interested, here’s the video explaining the testing process that this guy uses. https://youtu.be/iL0B1vvjSR4
It seems similar to what you briefly outlined, but perhaps a bit more thorough, and clean of exterior variables.
There’s a couple case studies I’m working on to display for the readers here. I think perhaps doing one on this should be added to the list! I dig the video, the guy is funny. The way I do my tests though is multiple tests of the same thing. Think CRO with AAB and AABB testing, but modified for search of course.
Nathan,
I completely agree with every single word of this post.
I feel sorry for all these people who aren’t able to find you as a source of informations and instead, they have to listen to all the BSs written in these useless groups (which unfortunately I’m a part of just to see how ridicolous they are).
As you said, most of the things they write about are things that they NEVER actually tested in real life and ALL the BSs that they talk about are made to sell their own courses.
Do you know how do we call them in Italy? Parasites of society (you probably use that sentence too).
People who live and earn scamming others by telling and regurgitating lies over lies.
Thanks for this post too. Even if this is a rant I hope it helps the guys in the groups to open their eyes and unveal all the BSs behind the “easy money dream”.
I’m extremely grateful for all the help you give us through this blog and through the Skype group chat and if this month I will be able to pay my rent (and not just that 🙂 ) it’s also because of you.
As you can see in these comments you have a large crowd of high quality people supporting you during your adventure so while thinking about the rest of the IM world I will bring you here a phrase from “Dante Alighieri” written inside the “Inferno” (hell, you surely know that), where it says..”Non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa”, which translated and explained means “Don’t care or spend time thinking of them, but simply look and go”.
Have a nice day,
Andrea
I love the quote Andrea. We’re still in the early ages of information, I think soon enough these people will be falling into oblivion.
Good post except for the bit about EXIF data. Geotagging your photos in business G+ photos has measurable impact everytime we perform it. If you don’t think G is interested in reading that info, then why did they integrate the geo tag feature natively in G+ photos?
Any info that G can crawl about your brand or company becomes pertinent to determining relevance and that includes geo tagged photos that are associated with your GMB/G Maps properties.
Chaz, thanks for your comment and input. Here’s what I believe… I don’t doubt that people that try to manipulate EXIF data see some sort of results, I just doubt that the results come specifically from the EXIF data. The people that are going to those types of lengths, are often doing a lot of different techniques to rank a site.
If EXIF data is the last thing you do, I can see why you and others would come to that conclusion without thinking that it could have been something you previously did that made an impact.
I have had people over the years tell me that EXIF helped them rank. I then asked them to remove the images and reupload without EXIF data, and of course the rankings stayed. If EXIF was the reason for results, removing the exif data and reuploading the images would have caused some negative reaction.
Even having images on your GMB page has been reduced to such a minimal factor, that even if EXIF were factoring into rankings, it would be such a minuscule amount that I could think of hundreds of better ways to spend the time.
I don’t have an agenda here. I’m not selling EXIF manipulation services or a course teaching people to do it. If there were any evidence of an impact in my tests, or even if others had a controlled experiment showing their results, then I’d be more open to the possibility. As of right now, I can say with complete confidence it isn’t a factor.
However, I appreciate the dialogue, and would be eager to see any controlled experiments you might have available.
Hey man,
Good post. Reminds of the time when I was in BHW (like 2 years ago) – the back patting and circle jerking by the group of people is just over the top. Honestly, I don’t have much to say, because I completely agree with this post as I have experienced these bullshit myself. And great CTA btw.haha
I was never very active on BHW, but same thing on WF. I guess it goes beyond the forums, and into different circles. Thanks for the comment!
I personally love data more than I love the so called expert analysis. I don’t call myself an SEO expert but I surely never see the need to change what I know works because some guru somewhere came up with a theory and next go buy my ebook at……not me.
I love G+ not only is it easy to work with but it does drive traffic to my sites. So why should I not use it. In fact when someone is logged into their gmail, I somehow get my g+ posts on the front page without any SEO on my part. So why hate on something that’s so obvious.
Great and I hope you rant some more. And yes also include the data.
Thanks for the comment Alex. It seems to me a lot of the followers of gurus are the information addicts. People that always think they need to learn more before applying what they know or what they think they know. I’ve always been the type to see for myself, which I think has been a big advantage, despite a lot of blow ups lol.
99.9% of experts are full of BS
That’s why i follow only active communities filled with people that rank and bank in their respective area of expertise. It can be local, lead gen, etc. but they always provide information that you can use right away.
The important thing is to create a process that you can implement with your current resources and improve it (invest in it) as you make some $$$
That’s a good approach Alek. Learning from people that are actually doing instead of talking.
This doesn’t apply only for local SEO.
When I started figuring out SEO or better said digital marketing or better said how to succeed online I realized how many people out there, including most of the industry leaders are full of s* and take advantage of general information that they pack to the wide audiences.
they literally have the same product or service or blog or whatever you want to call it, just change the shape and ….
my point is, rarely who out there will really share some knowledge and once you Know The Ledge …
rank (or whatever you’re doing and works the best for you) and bank and that’s that 🙂
Must admit didn’t go through the rest of your site, but will do … and I believe you won’t disappoint 🙂
Cheers mate
Thanks for the comment Alek, I appreciate it! You’re definitely right, this isn’t limited to SEO. There’s a lot of predatory practices all over the place.
I don’t remember how I found your website/blog, but I am so thankful that I did. Now I am going back and reading your earlier posts.
Thanks for the comment.
SEO in general is a misguided topic by nature. Its not that people are misguiding… they are relaying the data from their misguided and incorrect testing ( or so I want to think ) If it worked 3 years ago, it will work now.. if it didn’t work 3 years ago, there is no sense in trying it now. G+ is the most under rated SEO tool in todays ranking environment – and it has been that way for some time now. Share a post with G+ and your page will be just short of instantly indexed. get some shares shortly there after and you will get the G+ notification that you have a post ranked for a short period of time. I believe there is a CTR factor in this that determines the pages intro rank location. And all of this stems from a simple share – but NAW there is no SEO value there. In how I practice SEO… It is the indexing factor that suggests you are on the right track – does your efforts get a page indexed. I can tell you sharing a page on Facebook does not get a page indexed – on G+, well its just short of instant. You can check your log file, see the time you clicked the G+ share and the see the time the Google bot shows up – I have NEEVER seen anything more than 7 minutes. ( and we are talking 5k+ instances that has been analyzed ) This is not coincidence… this is time and again and again. Testing and data are the absolute key to successful SEO.
– Great post by the way!
I think there’s definitely some that are intentionally misguiding, but you’re right, most people aren’t doing it maliciously. I see stuff that is still being mentioned from 6, 7, and even 8+ years ago that stopped working but still being promoted as a good way to get rankings lol.
Interesting info on the Google+/indexing part. I’ll have to look at that. Thanks for the input buddy.
The bit that hurts me from this post is the EXIf stuff. I’ve spent hours and hours and days and probably weeks optimising my client’s EXIF with geo-tagging and keywords. On the one hand I don’t want what you’ve said to be true because that’s my time wasted, on the other hand I’m happy because it means I don’t have to waste that time ever again! But despite the trust I place in you, and that I believe everything else in this post, I feel nervous about not doing it anymore.
I guess the only way to be sure is testing testing testing. I’m going to try ranking without EXIF, ranking with EXIF, having EXIF then removing it, and not having EXIF then adding it.
If you know of any such test which have already been done that I can check and compare to, I’d be eternally grateful! Actually I already am, because I really appreciate the honesty in your posts (especially this one). Thanks.
This is very good news for you David. Definitely test it all out, for sure.. but when we’re in business, we often do things the long way, or take extra steps before figuring out ways to be more efficient. Assuming your testing shows the same as mine, this is a big win for you.
Just a side note here… I’ve noticed looking back at some of the images I added EXIF to with GMB, EXIF was lost in compression on Google’s end. Interesting stuff but I guess that’s common when compressing. I’m going to start a case study on this very blog about this and monitor the results.
Hey Nathan,
As one of the so-called SEO experts you’re calling out here (specifically by name), I can tell you that I personally can’t imagine anything worse than spreading lies or misinformation. If I say something online, I definitely believe it to be true, and I have no interest in patting anyone’s back or regurgitating information I haven’t tried to verify for myself.
I also love to walk a slightly grey line with Google, just to learn what’s possible. I won’t risk damaging my clients’ rankings or trust with Google by implementing anything questionable, because Google might eventually decide to do an algorithm update that will wipe out their rankings. That happened to a client of mine once when I had used a popular blog network for them prior to Penguin. I do like to play around in greyer areas for the sake of research though, and you can see this in some of my studies on click-through and citation distribution.
Let me also say, that while I think the negative bashing in this post is uncalled for, I love to get challenged on things. If someone shows me something that proves I was wrong, then I’ve now learned something new! You challenged me on the idea of creating a Google listing before citations, and I think you got that right. You made me change my mind. You’ve now got me thinking about the potential value of Google+ and while your words alone aren’t convincing me, I’ll definitely spend some time testing this on my own. Your results with community engagement are interesting, and I can see a potential for relevancy boosts from that. I can’t help but wonder if your results can be isolated specifically to the Google+ work – perhaps you scored a few good links in the same time period – but you’ve piqued my interest enough to test. Like I said, if I’m wrong, and this works, I’ll be thrilled. I’ll have another tool in the toolbelt for our clients.
I’m not sure where you get the impression that I don’t do SEO. I have a handful of direct SEO and consulting arrangements where *I* personally do all the work, and I oversee and direct our LocalSpark service which has dozens of clients. I regularly get directly involved in that work. I’m in the trenches all the time because I love it. I should probably distance myself from it more so I can focus on other areas of the business, but I just can’t pull myself away.
Regarding the impact from links, I agree that you can jump around in pages 2 through 10 pretty quickly from links. But in competitive markets, it’s rare to see quick *permanent* movement in the rankings on page 1. It takes time. We generally work with clients in competitive cities and industries, and a handful of good links takes a while to see the impact. Sometimes we get some really juicy links for them early on and they move up quicker, but it’s always better to under promise and over deliver in these cases.
Regarding being able to rank only in your physical location, every local search expert you’re referring to would agree that you can rank in the ORGANIC results outside of your city. It’s just that you generally can’t rank in the LOCAL PACK or local finder outside of your city, unless we’re talking about a cluster of small towns where there are hardly any other businesses. But, yeah, ranking in the organic results with city pages, as you describe in your post, is exactly how you get traffic from Google outside of your city. We do this all the time for our clients. It’s very effective.
It’s really too bad you do so much negative bashing of others in this post. You have some interesting things to say here. If you had just presented your arguments in a reasonable and respectful manner, I think you’d get a much warmer reception from the local search community. No one’s trying to “lie” to anyone. It’s possible that we’re wrong sometimes, and if someone come around and show us that we’re wrong with strong evidence, I’m certain that everyone you’re calling out in this post would be very interested in learning a new tactic they weren’t aware of before. We’re all on the same path, trying to understand how Google ranks results in local search, and then using that to our clients’ advantage.
Darren, I have to give you props for being one of the only ones that would comment on here without hiding your name. Kudos to you. The reason I mentioned you by name is because I DON’T believe you’re trying to spread misinformation, intentionally at least. I think you’re more focused on your brand than realizing what’s going on in the community, and not just your pals, but the vulture-like training programs out there.
Your comment could be a blog post, if you wanted you could always email me and I’d be more than willing to allow you to make a rebuttal post to mine.
You brought up that maybe I scored a few links while doing the Google+ posting, and that accounts for the rankings jump. Later, defending the point I touched on regarding backlinks, you said it’s rare to see permanent movement from backlinking that quickly. Which one is it? You can’t have it both ways. lol.
As for ranking in the pack, outside of your city… I’ve ranked in packs 30-35 miles away from the physical address of the business. Semi-competitive, and ranked above the competitors that had an address in that city.
I really don’t care about receiving a warm welcome. I’ll leave the kumbaya singing to the others. Darren, the truth is, you never would have even commented on here if it weren’t a negative format. Can you tell me I’m wrong?
Personally, I think I was very respectful. I didn’t mention any names, except your own and I didn’t bash you, just pointed out some flaws. Perhaps you don’t like the tone, that’s okay, but if someone in your position is now motivated to test some of the things I brought up, then isn’t the local search community as a whole, better off?
I think the lack of people challenging the common teachings out there, is what has caused the industry on our side to pretty much stand still. Look at the last few years of the Moz local ranking factors… it’s the same story every year.
Thanks for the comment.
Nathan, all of those city pages that we setup on my website work well for organic results, but in my testing I have never seen them in the 3-pack or even in the expanded results by choosing “More Places”.
I only show up in the 3-pack of my own town and the next one over because Google sees them as being the same. I honestly never thought that it was possible to show up in the 3-pack of a town that you aren’t located in. Now this is a new goal!
Hey Andrew, it works very well in less saturated areas. It can still work in populated areas, just at times requires a bit of extra oomph. When Google decides what to display in the packs, it’s based on relevance. You may have enough on page relevance, but creating a local footprint for other cities might be necessary. Some solid backlinks to individual landing pages would help as well.
It definitely used to be a LOT easier when it was a 7 pack… but still achievable, just need a bit of ongoing love and care. Also, a PBN sure could help a lot, but probably not necessary.
Theres a real trend with so called seo experts coming up with a random way to rank sites, without offering any proof. And without testing it out, everyone else shares it as gospel. This post is spot on
Thanks for the comment Matty. Best for all of us to make our own tests and base our actions on the results!
Hi Nathan
In my country, people like you are called ‘stirrers’. You’re mighty good at it. As a confirmed anti-establishment person I lap this stuff up, especially when it stacks up logically. In short it makes sense.
The world needs more mavericks – they’re the catalysts for human progress
Keep it up
Kim
Hey Kim, appreciate the comment. A stirrer huh… I can dig it! lol.
Right or wrong, it’s good information. I appreciate your providing insight based on your personal experiences. Any post that spurs conversation and debate about SEO is a great opportunity for learning, and that’s what you have provided here. Thanks Nathan!
Judging from the popularity of this post it looks like you’ve struck a chord with people. You’ve touched on one of the main reasons I don’t even frequent local SEO guru blogs anymore. A lot of it just reminds me of Moz horseshit. Honest, no bullshit non-biased info will always win the day, even if you’ve got to ruffle some feathers along the way.
Yeah… It really drives me crazy seeing the majority of the content that gets put out. I always visit blogs, and even the guru sources like Moz lol, and always leave disappointed with the crap they’re teaching. Ruffling feathers is no issue for me!
Ok, fair enough, I’m being lied to. Admittedly, I feel like I’ve been driving myself crazy doing lots of things that I’m not sure are necessary (Exif data as an example). I just want to learn to do SEO and local SEO properly. Can you point me in the right direction please, there has to be someone that has some trustworthy training?
Thank you!
Bob, the best recommendation I can make, is to just test everything you hear/see. Most local rankings can be achieved by analyzing the existing rankings, looking at their on page optimization and seeing where you can improve based on what’s already ranking. Get more citations, get more backlinks.. really, it comes down to creating a stronger association between the business and the industry, keyword, and location.
I love your energy and audacity to challenge the big boys and common teaching. On one side I keep hearing EMD and on page does not move the needle, and social media or Web 2.0 links are waste of time. White hat link outreach + great content is 2016 SEO.
It’s funny that I have seen countless of local service sites with EMD, thin content (reworded content), little to no backlink or social media links and heavy internal linking rank super well in Google. I just couldn’t explain why…
Now I know it is because of local relevancy.
Thanks for the comment Bowen. Yeah, it’s tough when you hear all the conflicting information. It seems like the big buzz right now is “schema”. Schema has been around since 2011, and dublin core has been around since 1995. The SEO industry is pretty funny. Test everything out for yourself before believing anyone, even me.
How do you feel about a privacy policy? Should local sites have one? Will it be worthless if it is a standard policy that is almost duplicate on other sites?
I think it’s unnecessary but it won’t hurt, even if it is practically duplicate.